Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: STO Leveling System  (Read 9252 times)

Offline SpeakThoseWords

  • Cadet 1st Class
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Reputation: 13
  • For a better Tomorrow!
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #10 on: 20 May 2008 10:25 PM »
A few thoughts:

The two part levelling system is clearly the way to go.

On Rank, I think XP should be awarded based on successful completion of a myriad of objectives and that commission XP should be given if objectives are completed by players or NPCs under your command.

On the actual player-power increasing system, I believe that a level system is a game-killer, and that skill based point-buy is the way to go.  Furthermore, I believe skills should have a soft cap of diminishing returns, albeit a very high one.  I think growing skills should allow players to be more versatile in the application of their skills instead of making them just 'more powerful versions of newbies.'  A rookie Science officer will be useless on a Borg Cube... even if they sunk all their points into, say, Interpreting systems with a Borg Specialty... an experienced Science officer will have a myriad of options though in the same situation.

On skill-based advancement vs getting pwned by noobs, by making the bridge the playground for experienced toons, you accomplish a good thing: You make it pointless for the Captain to go on away missions if there are other PCs to do it, since the Captain doesn't have more hitpoints or a super-phaser, so that lesser experienced characters will have things to do when planetary issues come up.  Besides, that noob couldn't even command a ship like yours, and if you were to fight ship to ship, the newb wouldn't even be able to damage your commissioned vessel of experience, rank and accomplishment.  You don't need levels in order to provide a sense of accomplishment, replayability, character development and advancement.  Levels are actually just an arbitrary psychological trigger and provide only a sense of these things, without actually providing them like a skill-based system can.

As for classes, players will have "classes..." the big color they wear on their shoulders and the department next to their name.  The thing is, at earlier levels, players will be able to change "classes" easily, until they find what they're really looking for. 

Readers are Leaders!

Offline wizenwolf

  • Cadet 3rd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Reputation: 15
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #11 on: 16 June 2008 10:39 AM »
Hello everyone, i have not posted on these forums before but have been following the Email updates and checking out the latest news on STO.

My thoughts (having watched every show except TOS) on the ranking/skill systems are that the developers should keep it as closely tied to the movies/shows as possible. People should all go through "the academy" and get a basic knowledge of the game and start at the lowest rank. From then people should be able to choose a career path that they can shape and customize. This could range from Engineering to command/Tactical, Security, Scientist/Science officer. There should be plenty of options. Perhaps not all of them leading to Starfleet. As people learn more new skills/trades they should progress through the ranks or prestige. And if people feel the need to change roles (like Warf did in "the way of the warrior") then they should be able to... But there will be good/bad effects on their overall record as a result (perhaps a reduction in rank but the possibility of reaching commander/captain ranks).

I hope Cryptic studios put a lot of thought in to this. I do not want to see people being an Admiral/Science Officer/Commadore all at the same time. I have seen it before in other MMORPG's and that would not be trek. People should progress at their individual skill/trade and know the possible rank limits/drawbacks AND benefits that it entails. If someone is an Engineer from day 1 and stays that way, working their way up the ranks, then people should be able to see that. There should be a recognition system perhaps similar to prestige that shows the Engineers experience and skill. It is from that people will be able to select that particular person to serve.

Sorry if that is a bit jumbled. My opinions on Star Trek are very strong as it is probably my favourite TV show of all time (along with BSG). A lot of my friends laugh at me for loving Trek so much but that is because they cannot see past the comic steriotypes of Spok and Kirk. Hopefully the new movie and this game will change the worlds view on the entire franchise. And maybee my friends will finally see what is so genius about the Trek universe.

Thanks for reading.


Offline Zach

  • President
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2919
  • Reputation: 1475
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #12 on: 16 June 2008 11:13 AM »
I completely agree with your views Wizenwolf!

I think that we can get some answers to our concerns by looking at City of Heroes, City of Villains and the upcoming Champions Online - All From Cryptic Studios.

COH and COV pretty much stood up and said - "We are NOT Standard MMOs - We are NOT World of Warcraft Replicas - We are DIFFERENT!" - And Champions Online Looks like it is going to be the same - they are doing some stuff in Champions that HAS NOT been done before!

So i think that we can expect them to apply the same level of.......newness to Star Trek Online - I think that we are going to have alot of eyebrow raisers in Star Trek Online - Hopefully more good than bad!

Offline BLZBUB

  • Hailing Frequency Donator
  • Lieutenant Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 1023
  • Reputation: 393
  • USS Betelgeuse
    • Lotus Fleet
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #13 on: 16 June 2008 12:27 PM »
First off, let me say that I am happy to meet your mind-set wizenwolf! If I have not said it before...welcome aboard!

And secondly: I, like Zach, totally agree.

The ST:O MMO has got to be as close to canon as possible, with-in the game. Rank progression should take years, just as in real life.
 I do not care if I need two years to reach Lieutenant after leaving the academy...that is the way it works in a militaristic society.
 I want this game to be true to Star Treks ideals, yes: BUT, I also do not want 50,000 commanders and Captain's running around! We should all be Red Shirts ( not you Random :)) for a long time.
 The shows always showed us many character's of high rank, but it is the lower ranks, the "bread-and-butter', that always get the job done.
 Just so everyone knows, I am retired military, and although the respect for a higher rank is always there, the need for 'grunts' is the backbone of a fleet.
Lets get this done right Cryptic! I will play for years and years to reach Admiral rank, but when I finally do, I will have earned it by my actions and performance, not because I have spent 24/7 in the game!
Fleet Admiral BLZBUB,
Fleet Commanding Officer,
Lotus Fleet

Offline Nova

  • Lieutenant Junior Grade
  • *
  • Posts: 344
  • Reputation: 87
    • Lotus Fleet
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #14 on: 17 June 2008 02:08 PM »
Today I was Pondering the differences between Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, with regard to how they where able to manage each others Carrer, As we are well aware even when looking at Career managment from the perspective of Captain Riker, it is quite apparent that in the Star Trek Universe that there seems to be a very strong precedence on not forcing someone up the chain of command and as a result we may see a huge divergence of ages, and experiences that eventually exist within the Starfleet Admiralty.

For example what do we know from our 4 Captains

With Kirk it is safe to say that he served 30+ years in starfleet and in what seemed to be a Rapid Promotion through the ranks upon graduation from the Academy, we also know that he was relatively young when he became captain of his own Starship, from their its seems though that his carrer began to loose momentum once he found a position that made him happiest. This concept is reinforced when during the movies we see how uneasy he is as an Admiral and how much he yearned to return to the Center Chair. Which of course was exactly what he got.

With Picard, he does not seem to be unlike Kirk with regards to allowing his career to lose momentum upon reaching the rank of Captain. On numerous occasions Picard had the Option of accepting Promotion and even positions that allowed him to move to a different Career all together. However like Kirk, Picard seemed to have found some level of Comfort and Love for the Center Chair.

Now with Sisko it appeared that before his acceptance to the Rank of Captain that he was all about Duty to Starfleet, however after accepting a Posting at Deep Space 9 and having an Inordinate amount of time as a Commander in command of a Starbase it was apparent that his presence there was more out of conveinence for the needs of the Federation and Sisko's relationship with the Bajorans then it was for Sisko's Duty to Starfleet. This as a result continued to show true over the course of the Series as we saw Sisko become more and more a Bajoran by culture then remembering his duties as a StarFleet Captain. Personally when compared to what we know of with how Starship Captain are supposed to act, I would have to say that Sisko was probably the worst of all of them when it came to responsibility of Duty. All I can say is Thank God Worf was there to keep it all together.

Now how about Janeway. Janeway herself is a very competent Starfleet Officer however at times I had doubts that she had enough experience to handle half of the situations that she was put under. It seems as though Janeway placed herself on a Fast Track to the Admiralty. Little is known about her early career but it is safe to say that she was relatively young when she took Command of Voyager and after spending only 7 years as a Captain was Promoted to the Rank of Admiral. Granted what she accomplished was great and her promotion was well deserved. But it should be noted that Picard and Kirk have been captains 2 and 3 times longer then her, and their experiences have helped to get them out of harms way on more then one occasion.

Through these differences it is really easy to see how within a Star Trek MMO one could truly make their own path and decide upon when it should be that they should receive a promotion and that Promotion should not be related to Skill by any means.

Offline SpeakThoseWords

  • Cadet 1st Class
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Reputation: 13
  • For a better Tomorrow!
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #15 on: 18 June 2008 01:36 PM »
Kudos to wizenwolf... I agree with all you've said.

For BLZ... I think you've focused on simulating a military at the expense of fun.  That's not a good set of priorities for game design.  Two years of game time doesn't have to be two years of real time.  Both for playablity and entertainment purposes.  If you're concerned about not having too many captains, make being a captain really hard, and by that I don't mean contrived, difficult, or requiring a lot of time and luck invested (see SWG's Jedi), but requiring a skillful play, high success rates and competent team building skills.

Your solution doesn't keep power gamers from getting their accounts on opening day and being the first (and only groups, if there's a hard limit) to be Captain, giving us all a big headache... not a good standard.

And while there is a need to limit captains, without hard caps, there is no need for PC Grunts... NPC grunts work just as fine.

Quote
Through these differences it is really easy to see how within a Star Trek MMO one could truly make their own path and decide upon when it should be that they should receive a promotion and that Promotion should not be related to Skill by any means.

I disagree with this completely, and I'm not entirely sure how this lines up with what you've said about the Captains of the shows.  Because of their great skill, high success rates, and great team, Kirk and Picard were offered Admiralty several times, and they declined.  It's one thing to decline a promotion, that's fine, but was certainly offered. 

Sisko, for all his Emissaryness got the job done, often at great cost, consistently.  Also a great team.  We can say all we want about where his heart was, but he certainly wasn't failing as a Commander, and thus, was promoted to Captain.

Janeway is a special case... she went on a special one-of-a-kind extended raid and racked up a lot of skill and victories (again, a high success rate) over a very short period of time.  She basically powerlevelled in the Delta Quadrant.

I'll agree that promotions are not forced, sure.  But I will not agree that they are completely unrelated to skill.
Readers are Leaders!


Offline wizenwolf

  • Cadet 3rd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Reputation: 15
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #16 on: 18 June 2008 04:50 PM »
Yeah i do see what you mean.

Perhaps a way of limiting the amount of high ranked players is by offering the higher ranks more responsibility within the game. For example the "grunts" and lower ranks will have more options to go on exciting missions or training exercises, whereas the Captains/Admirals would have to perhaps sacrifice some of this to carry out their responsibilities/commitments aboard their ships/stations ect. I think this would, in a sense, kill 2 birds with one stone because it will make being a captain/Admiral ect attainable, but only to the more "hardcore" players who are ready for it. And at the same time the more casual players might perhaps be more suited to their current ranks. It would be silly having Captains ect galovanting across the galaxy on gruntish missions when it is them who are supposed to be in COMMAND!

I think this is true to the shows also. You get the sense that Picard was suited to being captain of the Enterprise. And when Sisko was put behind a desk in the war against the Dominion (season 6?!?), he disliked not being in his element on the bridge of the Defiant.

Just a thought. To be honest i wouldn't really like to see people having to play for rediculous amounts of time to get the highest ranks. And this way perhaps the higest rank might not be the best for all people, but for the people who actually want it and are ready for it.

Offline SpeakThoseWords

  • Cadet 1st Class
  • *
  • Posts: 64
  • Reputation: 13
  • For a better Tomorrow!
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #17 on: 18 June 2008 09:15 PM »
I like the responsibility angle a lot... but that begs the question: What if Admirals and Captains decide not to fulfill their responsibilities? What do they lose?

I have a couple ideas, but I'll have to fill them in later.
Readers are Leaders!

Offline Zach

  • President
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2919
  • Reputation: 1475
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #18 on: 19 June 2008 10:46 AM »
In the same way that you see officers demoted in the series - Tom Paris for example, i submit that Captains or Admirals could also be subject to demotion - either in rank or position. If a captain wasn't fulfilling his duty's as a ships commander, then perhaps he would be moved to a desk job......An Admiral might loose his standing / reputation and be demoted from, say, commandant of the academy to a position with less prestige....

Offline wizenwolf

  • Cadet 3rd Class
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Reputation: 15
Re: STO Leveling System
« Reply #19 on: 22 June 2008 11:02 PM »
I like that. If a captain doesn't do the things that he is expected to do... Then he looses his ship/command. If he doesn't like it, then let him demote himself to a rank gives him the right balance of responsibility and action that he desires.

We could be on to something here.