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Author Topic: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!  (Read 7881 times)

Offline Crazyfist

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #10 on: 03 March 2008 02:38 PM »
If i could model, I'd gladly do complete ship interiors as much as I could.

Im sure there are people for that, maybe itl take longer for STO to finish but I'd rather have better quality than to have it completed early.
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Offline Bajoran Berrie

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #11 on: 03 March 2008 03:18 PM »

-Include the player ships bridge.
-Have a turbo lift that will take you to important sections of the ship such as:
   -Transporters
   -Shuttlebay
   -Sickbay
   -Enginering
   -Personal Quarters (I'd hope they'd give you personal quarters)
   -Tenforward/messhall type area (for just hanging out with your friends)


yeh, starbears got it right. i dont want all the ships rooms, though i wouldnt cry if it happened. just vital areas as outlined by starbear. poss with the addition of an astrometrics lab. that would keep me VERY happy.

but dependant on how far they're gonna take it, would there be jefferies tubes? maybe you can just access them from engineering.
Honestly, my Pagh is massive.


Offline Botany Bay

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #12 on: 03 March 2008 07:45 PM »
The reason the "No-PSI's-at-launch" decision of PE ticked me off so much was, that it revealed how relatively usual their game could have become. It showed they planned a game that would have splitted into two very different games - ground and space.

I allways said and go on repeating it: The best way to do a Star Trek MMO in my opinion is to focus on groundplay (planets, corridors, shipsinteriors, do some quests in engeneering, etc.) and that adds the spacecontent to this as seamless as possible.

That PSI's where not needed prooved that PEs space content would have focused very much arround combat. What else? Imagine to stare at your ship from outside perspective while scanning for lifeforms - rather boring.
This was also an indication for the game to become very simple (hit button "hailing frequency" and wait for the result "No answer, Sir" and then raise your shilds and fire).

What calmed me down a bit again is, that all the fancy Star Trek ship life content would have been served by the HUBs and their interiors. But thats exactly what I mean with a splitted game: Run arround on HUBs for engeneering quests and action in the jeffreys tubes. But as soon as you enter your own vessel, you better put it on red alert until your return (go and destroy ten Bimphalian Pirate Marauders).
« Last Edit: 03 March 2008 07:46 PM by Botany Bay »
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Offline Zach

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #13 on: 15 March 2008 12:47 PM »
I remember something Mccoy once said when he appeared on Star Trek the Next Generation - He said that in the old days, a captain could walk every corridor of his ship in a day, but now (referring to TNG) it would take weeks.

I tagged onto this idea, it captured me - the idea that you could build something so huge, in space, that trekked around the galaxy discovering things, it was truly amazing.

I f ind it interesting how people will settle for "just the key areas" when realistically, we want and require the whole ship. A large ship such as the Galaxy Class has so many areas that can be repetative, crew quarters could be 2 or 3 whole decks with little rec rooms and mess halls spaced here and there. Then you have 10 or 15 cargo bays, multiple transporter rooms, often 2 or 3 labs for every department....several holodecks, the rest of the ship consists of the key areas - the shuttle bays, the bridge, engine room, sickbay(s) and medical facilitys.

The point i am trying to make, is that there is a lot of repetativness in the structure of a starship, especially a large one, and that if you create enough stuff for the larger ships, it can be easily mixed and matched onto smaller ships to create a wide range of variety.

Customisation in ship systems could be done via Starbases - System Upgrades, new systems, New this, new that, upgraded warp engines or warp cores.....and all of this "upgrade" content could be added to AFTER the game launch.

I think it should be done at launch - properly.

Who cares if it costs and extra $10 million dollars when you can potentially make upto 100 million a year!!

Offline Falin

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #14 on: 15 March 2008 12:56 PM »
I think at a minimum, the ships corridors, jeffreis tubes, turbolift and key locations (engine room, bridge, sickbay, transporters, ect) should be built. crew quarters can be dynamically added, the doors can be there but don't operate, unless a player is assigned a room on the ship. some places, players would like to see (1o forwrd), but can realistically be left out for now and added later in expansions. that should cut down about 60-70% of modeling the ship interior.
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Offline Random Redshirt

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #15 on: 15 March 2008 02:31 PM »
I remember something Mccoy once said when he appeared on Star Trek the Next Generation - He said that in the old days, a captain could walk every corridor of his ship in a day, but now (referring to TNG) it would take weeks.

I tagged onto this idea, it captured me - the idea that you could build something so huge, in space, that trekked around the galaxy discovering things, it was truly amazing.

I f ind it interesting how people will settle for "just the key areas" when realistically, we want and require the whole ship. A large ship such as the Galaxy Class has so many areas that can be repetative, crew quarters could be 2 or 3 whole decks with little rec rooms and mess halls spaced here and there. Then you have 10 or 15 cargo bays, multiple transporter rooms, often 2 or 3 labs for every department....several holodecks, the rest of the ship consists of the key areas - the shuttle bays, the bridge, engine room, sickbay(s) and medical facilitys.

The point i am trying to make, is that there is a lot of repetativness in the structure of a starship, especially a large one, and that if you create enough stuff for the larger ships, it can be easily mixed and matched onto smaller ships to create a wide range of variety.

Customisation in ship systems could be done via Starbases - System Upgrades, new systems, New this, new that, upgraded warp engines or warp cores.....and all of this "upgrade" content could be added to AFTER the game launch.

I think it should be done at launch - properly.

Who cares if it costs and extra $10 million dollars when you can potentially make upto 100 million a year!!

I absolutely and totally agree. Even if it took them an extra year or even two, in order to make it happen, this must be done right, and it is one of the most important elements of the environment of the game. Fully exploreable, semi-interactive Ship Interiors will go a long ways towards assuring player immersion, and I can not stress enough the importance of this matter.
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Offline Kinneas

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #16 on: 15 March 2008 03:35 PM »
" Do you realize how hard that is?!"
"Do you realize how much resources would be needed to do that!"
" Well maybe if it goes well and is a hit we will do it after launch."

Yes yes...all very good excuses.

   I'm sorry.  For a Tripple A MMO that just does not wash for me.

You spend under 100 million launching it.   You make 100 million +  in box sales in the first day and are on your way to 800 million a month by the end of the year and 69 million a month after that.

You already paid the MMO off on day 1.

And you are complaining that developing it was too hard!?   Seriously?

What MMO's give and what they get  IS   NOT   ON   PAR.

They want you to accept the very least possible for the return...what business person would not want that.  But in the case of Tripple A MMO's with established franchises it is just absurd that they can not achieve the goals required.+

MMO kings are the new Robber Barrons...wake up. 
MMO's more than a 9 Billion dollar industry before 09.

"Kinneas. I have never agreed with your figures"
""Yeah...YOU said WoW would never be a hit either and that it would never...ever reach 69 million a month....which it has blown away."

"Kinneas you over estimate Star Trek"
"You under estimate Trek."



Offline MrJuliano

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #17 on: 19 March 2008 09:35 AM »
I think one of the misconceptions about PSIs which has cropped up is that PE didn't plan to allow multiple players on one ship, acting as a crew. It's mainly because they responded to the whole debate so badly, but in fact, it was planned for crew to act together on a single ship. Here is a quote from the TrekCore interview done with Daron. It was released after P2 canceled the game:
Quote
16. It has been said that players will be able to control ships slightly smaller than the Galaxy class at launch. Approximately how many players would it take to command a ship that size?

Every ship will have a crew requirement and the larger the ship the more crew you need. You players will have the option of having a NPC [non-player character] crew, so that nobody is required to have real players aboard to take out any given ship. Larger ships will accommodate up to 5 real players, but you can also fill all those slots with NPCs.

18. Are there any misconceptions or things you want to clear up about Star Trek Online?

...There were a lot of implications that vast numbers of people were going to be occupying these ships. People assumed that they were really just stepping into the TV shows starting off as an ensign. I think that a misconception about the game is that the whole game is you running around the inside of a starship, maybe once in a while beaming down to a surface to run around, fixing systems or plotting courses or something like that from the inside of a starship. That is the misconception. In reality, every player will have their own starship very early in the game. They can invite other players on board and they can fly as a crew aboard a single starship, or they can go out with other players in their own starships and explore the galaxy and beam down to planets and have their own individual or group adventures down on the planets. No one is forced to be part of the crew or part of a group in the game. It is really up to the player to choose to do that. We will have what we call Fleets, which are a form of guilds, which are a little more structured: They will have a Fleet leader, and different officers in the fleet, that does kind of resemble that hierarchy you would expect within military structure...


Link: http://gaming.trekcore.com/startrekonline/trekcoreinterview.html

The question was whether or not to have the bridge modeled so you could operate the vessel from a 3rd person view from inside the ship, not whether or not you could crew together. Grouping together on one ship was something that was always planned by P2 and was going to be incorporated in the final game.
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Offline Botany Bay

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #18 on: 19 March 2008 04:35 PM »
This quotation shows pretty fine what I mean with how the No-PSIs-at-launch decission revealed the basic concept of PEs ST:O.

A ground based game (casual, WoWish, label it as it pleases you) and a space game (EVE-like, SFC-like, but with the option to have up to five people controll the ship at the same time).

That concept would have resulted in a game focussing on ground-raids and space-raids. And PE has never stated anything that made a different impression on me. They kept absolutely silent about diplomacy, they didnt say anything about puzzles, riddles or minigames (except for poker or these kind of relatively useless minigames) and they never talked about what an engeneer would do (repairs?) or a medic (how to heal?). But if I remember correct it where exactly these things that most fans where really curious about.

So as a whole the game made the impression of SWG on me.

PS: Its a Star Trek MMO. Of course we want to step just into the TV show. What else?  :muaha:


PSPS: And if SWG would have given players the chance to step right into the movies, the NGE debacle wouldnt have had such a bad impact on the game. But without this "I am in Star Wars" feeling there was nothing that compensated.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2008 04:40 PM by Botany Bay »
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Offline SpeakThoseWords

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Re: Player Ship Interiors - The Old Debate Opened Again!
« Reply #19 on: 21 May 2008 12:35 AM »
((Riiiise from your graaaave!))

The principal issue with Player Ship interiors is how do we approach them from a design perspective to make them engaging, rewarding and fun? The P2 statement about Galaxy class ships is indicative of how enslaved we are to Fantasy MMO mentality... how do we look at Ship interiors? Well... they're "Hubs, like Cities" which is obviously not good enough. There's no comparison in the Fantasy MMO mentality for a Starship interior, which is a Player-Run 'City' that players fly into battle which alternately becomes an adventure zone of varying type depending on the anomaly which is affecting the ship at the time. 

There's no comparison, you have to take a new line of thought in game design.  You've got new problems that need to be faced, for the sake of the IP rather than ran away from:

A) If players are carrying their hubs around with them all the time... where do they meet?

Excellent question.  Multi-layered solution: Hubs need maintenance and refueling as well, and as such, flock to superhubs: Space Stations, from time to time.  On top of this, using the mission system to bring players together, constantly spamming missions to rendezvous, trade resources and giving multiple ships the same mission in the same time frame... well... players are constantly bumping into each other and deciding whether to react or not. 

B) Do we really want our players plinking away at consoles for a half hour at a time?

-Again, we're copying the feel of Star Trek, not the stage placement of the extras.  Engineers can be constantly on the move from one clicky switch to the other, some switches which might require certain skill levels, or tools to click, some which might be on the other side of strange obstacles or even intruders.  Engineers are fine.
-Science Officers are, essentially, crafting.  Which brings up the point: many MMO players do this anyway, so lets not freak out if a little crafting-screening action... especially if we put work into the animations of various science accomplishments... it could be as fun to watch as combat, potentially.
- Medical, also doing clickies, in their own way.  Animate the people they're working on both in state and reaction to medical treatments... stack vital readouts on the side of the screen and boom... action.
- Allow ALL players to switch to external ship view whenever they like to see what's going outside.

C) Ships are repetitive and stale inside... it's all the same... how can we make traveling around it and in it fun, rewarding and exciting... how can we have landmarks?

- Awareness of location is pretty easy: give each ship a specific corridor path/design... as long as the player knows what class and deck they're on, they should be able to look at the shape of the hallways around them, or at worst, the section label that just flashed at the top of the screen and know where they are.
- NPCs are diverse, and have different patterns, agendas and priorities and things to do, even if the hallways are pristine.  Security/Combat missions with violent crewmen, personal needs for Science skills, which may involve collecting info or ingredients or whatever.  Private Engineering projects.  Courier and stealth missions for all player types.  As a player levels up, they may find themselves training (pokemon style) or otherwise directing NPCs.  Each ship should have about three quest-giving NPCs to every PC, depending on how long the crew is expected to use that ship.
- The Holodeck.  This alone should balance out any lack of content on the rest of the ship.  Players can be constantly in a fight if they so choose.
- If downtime is integrated into travel time, then you're actually delivering MORE action than the average MMO which separates the two.

D) You have no idea how many problems a flying player-run battle city that alternately becomes an action zone brings up! Think of the Griefing!

- Allow players to transfer, even mid-mission (i.e. escape pod and transport ship comes to take you to nearest starbase) without personal loss
- Personal Quarters are 'taken with you' when you go to a new ship, including all items. 
- Personal Quarters are exempt from battle zone
- No Federation-to-Federation PvP.
- Big consequences for failure and crewman damage for decision makers, little-no consequences for lower level characters.
- Players on a destroyed ship are 'emergency teleported' to transporter-buffer carrying escape pod which brings players back to starbase to either find new group, or wait for captain to bring next commissioned ship, typically a step down for the Captain, at least at a loss of upgrades.
- A player who logs onto a ship in the midst of a ship-wide mission will be treated like a player who logs onto a server during a server-wide event, essentially, they are forced to participate in something cool, transfer to a different ship or go to an instance (holodeck/quarters) and do their own thing.

E) So a Captain and Commander buffing and running NPCs while Science Officers craft, Engineers and Medical Officers heal ship and crew and Tactical/Helm doing ship combat while Security defends from intruders and invades the enemy ship at the same time? That's MONSTROUS! What will they fight!?

- Well, when you have 50+ people of various skill levels all working together to make one ship fight... much less multiple ships coming together, you basically are designing a large-scale raid encounter.  That means every enemy ship is, basically, a big raid, with all the strategy and 'learning how this ship/captain works' that such encounters typically require to achieve victory.  Each enemy ship class would have to have a certain number of tools at it's disposal and each captain would have to have their own preferences and giveaway patterns.

That way, when an Amrada of 200 ships assemble to take on a Dominion-scale threat, you have a once-a-year event... instead of a once-a-week event... You've just given someone a once-in-a-lifetime experience instead of a WoW clone.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2008 12:43 AM by SpeakThoseWords »
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