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Star Trek Gaming => Star Trek: Online (MMORPG) => Locations, Storyline and Characters => Topic started by: Sir_Cedric on 07 July 2008 02:01 PM

Title: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 07 July 2008 02:01 PM
If you played SWG before, then you know about the crafting system they have in place. IMO it was one of the best I seen to date. An example being with mining. You had different mining stations you could setup, and you told the station what type of ore you needed, and loaded the credits and power to start it running. The station would continue to run until: (A) The resources got used up, (B) You bin got filled up, (C) You ran out of what kept the station running to begin with.

I am still hoping we will see Civilians in STO, mainly used for merchants, crafters and gathers. They are the unseen force in the Federation, and we got to see part of their world on DS9. Some people think this is a waste of time, and starfleet officers should be able to do all this craft as well. BUT crafters in Star Fleet were only in the Engineers and Medical ranks, and mainly what they did was stuff for the ships and crews.

What I feel is need to make this game deeper, are Civilian workers to do the odds and ends.

Here's an example of jobs I see for the working class:

1. Miner - Dig up and refine all ores and crystals
2. Tailor - Hand made clothes
3. Merchant - Seller of all types of goods
4. Cargo Transporter - Need to move heavy or light cargo to all planets
5. Art Crafter - From glass to stone and even paintings, we need some to help dress up you quarters.
6. Dancer - Helps to boost a crews moral.
7. Musician - Moral booster and helps to past the time.
8. Cook - Gives a boost to a crews abilities

Those are just a small example of a few worker type jobs that could get added to STO. Mind you this doesn't touch on the other type of jobs within Star Fleet, or any of the other ideas CS has of their own. This is just my thoughts on the matter, and something I think is very do able in the game.

Another question would be, where would we put the Civilians in the game? How about the Starbase for #1. It's a great place to do your craft, and you will always have Star Fleet ships paying these places a visit.

Anyway, feel free to talk about this old idea, and expand on it if you will. But I still believe this is a needed part of STO that needs to be added.  :wink:
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sarevok on 07 July 2008 02:23 PM
I wouldn't mind have the option available, but it wouldn't be me. Also, if it gets don't it shouldn't take away from the development time of the Starfleet gameplay.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 07 July 2008 02:53 PM
I wouldn't think so, you would have to treat it as a mini-game within the main game. After all would you love to be rescued by a Player Starfleet ship, if your doing a cargo run as a civilian in dangerous areas?  :)
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Zach on 08 July 2008 12:31 PM
I think they having these Civilian options would make the game more realistic, and it would increase the number of people playing the game, subscribing, making micro-transactions - it can only be good for the game.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 10 July 2008 01:12 PM
I really hope someone at CS gets word of this idea about Civilians, and really really thinks long and hard about it. Cause if they want to make the best Scifi game out there, then adding the civilians would be a great step in that direction. Why? Think about it, not everyone likes Star Trek, BUT if you had parts of the game for Freelancer types, like the guys that play in EVE online, then maybe you can corner the market.

Think about it, sorry if I am not making since, it's still early for me. lol

But mainly if you add civilians with all the things that go with it, from the Ships down to the clothes, you will bring over even more players into the game. On one side you will have the Military ranks, be it Federation, Klingon, Romulan etc., and on the other side you will have Civilian businesses along with the flip side of that coin of the crime lord based underground.

Now if you added that much more to STO, think about how deep the storylines would be.

I really hope someone at CS reads this, and expands on the idea.  :wink:
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Crazyfist on 10 July 2008 02:07 PM
Imo, most of what u've suggested works better as hobbies or side craft or whatever u wanna call it, example: a musician, loads of people in trek perform music on their free time, tailoring aswell, etc etc.

But merchant, miner and cargo transporters  could very well be full time jobs, and i could well see it being like this: if you want to be a cargo transporter then u apply to a ship that transports cargo :P see what i mean? simple but effective i hope.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 11 July 2008 03:30 PM
Well the main thought behind this idea is mainly thins. If we truly see factions in STO, who can be the neutral go between? That's were the civilians come into play. You can do business between each faction, and not suffer from the military restrictions of the neutral zones. This plays on one of my old ideas of having Freelancers in STO, people who don't hold military rank under any faction in the game, and it frees you up to do other things, be it legal or illegal in the game universe.

I can't stress enough how much deeper this game will be, if you have a civilian system in place, and DONE the right way. Look to SWG to see what not to do, and even in WOW to see what worked, and what failed.  :wink:
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Crazyfist on 11 July 2008 04:40 PM
Cedrics words are true indeed.

Civilians: what things can they do that normal crew cannot?

Among other things, for instance freelancing without the restrictions of military neutral zones as Cedric suggested.

I have a idea that i dont like myself but could work but i doubt it would be very fun: all players play as civilians until they get lucky to get into starfleet academy entrance exams and if they have skill they will pass :P rest are civilians. Im not serious btw i would never tolerate that. Any ideas ppl?
Discuss please.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 11 July 2008 04:54 PM
Well I am just hoping someone from CS is reading this idea, so it can make it into STO. If not at launch, at least in the 1st patch or free download. But I would like to see the main breakdown in the game with Military on one side, and civilian on the other. Each with there own missions to do, and each with it's own career paths to take. It can only help make this a great game, instead of just a good game. And maybe it would see WOW like numbers for the accounts.  :muaha:
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Raven on 15 July 2008 05:34 AM
I am not completely sure about civilians, but I 100% that the SWG crafting system is one of the absolute best, while adapting certain concepts such as resource gathering, etc, I would like to see other things changed, for example, it should take me some time to build, in STO, a Starbase or outpost, or hell even a probe, not 1-3 seconds and a few clicks.  Engineers, either uncommissioned or commissioned would fit the role best of mechanics, builders, etc.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Crazyfist on 16 July 2008 12:16 PM
Ok in for instance WoW, if u craft a sword it takes a cpl seconds, but here is my idea.

If you construct a shuttle for instance, you look at the schematics, assign the engineer crew to replicate/assemble the needed parts for the shuttle, workload distribution. The engineering crew are replicating their assigned components and when the base components start to be done you start assembling the shuttle piece by piece, including the electronics. Every crafted component and assembled chip gives experience and is a different click/minigame.

This same goes for repairing and replacing.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Raven on 16 July 2008 05:20 PM
Ok in for instance WoW, if u craft a sword it takes a cpl seconds, but here is my idea.

If you construct a shuttle for instance, you look at the schematics, assign the engineer crew to replicate/assemble the needed parts for the shuttle, workload distribution. The engineering crew are replicating their assigned components and when the base components start to be done you start assembling the shuttle piece by piece, including the electronics. Every crafted component and assembled chip gives experience and is a different click/minigame.

This same goes for repairing and replacing.

I think this is a perfect way of putting what I've been trying to say.  I was speaking with Nova lastnight and I told him while I have seen some awesome crafting systems, like in SWG, I think in STO it should be more involved.  For example, in the topic of guilds, we should be allowed to have a small sector of space and be authorized to establish a starbase, it will require a group effort to gather the resources, and actually construct the starbase, build the super structure, then the hull, and then internal systems, it should be a teamwork project, which I think would be awesomely fun and unique.  The other catch would be that the base would need to be maintained and if not and it is abandoned, it may be up for grabs...but of course the free loaders would need to fix her up.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 17 July 2008 12:57 PM
Your starbase idea reminds me of the outposts idea I had for guilds. Mainly I said all guilds should start with a few ships, then have the option to build an outpost. The outpost being smaller than the starbase, would be maintained by the guild, and you would need to have a good supply of mats, alone with members to build up to the Starbase. If your guild gets even bigger, then you get a super sized starbase.

So it should go like this when making a guild place in STO IMO.

1. 3 to 5 Ship crews to start guild/fleet
2. Outpost after you have the mats
3. Starbase more mats, and more ships with crews 10 to 16 added
4. Super Starbase more more mats and more crewed ships 25 to 30

If the Guild/ fleet has an Admiral, then they can get special missions from SFC, along with standard mission sent to any starbase. These special missions would be open to the guild only, standard missions would be open for all.

Just an idea that was kicked around long ago. Of course you would have all types of crafting stations within the Outpost, and once you get bigger, you will have better places open up, and more types of things you can make at your guild base.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Fraek on 17 July 2008 06:19 PM
One of my best experiences with civilians on an official MMORPG server was in Ultima Online, when the GMs set it up so that Orcs and other fiends spawned just outside of Minoc, which as the name would suggest is a city that mainly appeals to miners (in particular rookie ones; more experienced ones usually preferred less crowded spots out in the wilderness, where there were finer metals).  Now, because these people spent most of their time mining and crafting, and you gain points in a skil in Ultima Online by using that particular skill, these miners were far from always great at defending themselves, and with the sudden influx of hostile MOBs, many of them were in a spot of trouble.  Now, this meant that more capable combatants could go to Minoc and kill fiends not just for the sake of grinding and looting, but to actually help those that are in need; I think that this was great, as ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtues_of_Ultima) play a key part in the Ultima franchise (indeed, many of the single-player games that preceded Ultima Online were all about earning points in different virtues, and this would later be incorporated into UO).
Now, certainly, ethics play an important part in Star Trek, too; wouldn't it be great if all of those starship Captains had people - real people (or rather the avatars thereof) - that they could protect?  I for one certainly think so, and it would give something for those of us who abhor plot-driving quests in MMOGs (all four of us!) something meaningful to do.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 18 July 2008 01:12 PM
You hit the nail right on the head Fraek. It's fine to rescue NPCs or escort them, but how much more meaningful would it be, if you had to protect or escort other players. This is where the Civilian class comes into play in my mind, and really it should be an option when you begin your STO life.

On another note, I feel if you combine the elements of crafting from UO and SWG, you will have one of the best crafting games in the MMO market. But of course with the Star Trek Fell added to it.  :wink:
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Crazyfist on 20 July 2008 12:59 PM
This may be disliked by many, but i kinda would like to see fleet vs fleet wars within the federation lol. Capture their base, or destroy it and all their ships but anyways, if it could  be implemented correctly and the 'why are fed ships fighting eachother' question answered then i think it could be cool. Perhaps explained as fed war ops which would be paused if there was an immediate threat against the federation?
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Sir_Cedric on 20 July 2008 02:02 PM
I don't see that happening in STO,  maybe a war game with no damage, but nothing with Federation vs federation with damage. That would set off people more vs having a different faction doing the same. lol

Ok back on topic:

I been thinking, and IMO I believe STO should had a breakdown in crafting of Faction(Military), Civilian, and Common.

Military items would be made and use for factions only, examples being type 1 phasers and body shields, also top level enhancements too all ship equipment.

Civilian crafting wouldn't have the same levels of crafting as you see in the military, example be you making type 2 phasers, but limited by SFC cause your not contracted to make type 1 phasers, military use only. BUT you can get a Crime lord trying to contract you to make them, but doing so will give you a bad rep with SFS.

Common crafting would be noncritical items you can make be it military use or civilian, examples would be artwork or jewelry.

Adding the criminal element would give people a choice, but those choices will have a big effect on your career, one being you are wanted for dealing in illegal activity, and you can't enter safe areas without the security forces looking for you.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Fraek on 21 July 2008 02:12 PM
On another note, I feel if you combine the elements of crafting from UO and SWG, you will have one of the best crafting games in the MMO market. But of course with the Star Trek Fell added to it.  :wink:
I fully agree:  Ultima Online had a great crafting system for its time, not to mention how resource gathering works!  Then, Star Wars Galaxies improved on Ultima Online's crafting by only specifying what type of components were needed to craft something and then allowing you to choose which one's you specifically want to use (so I need a type of meal and a type of fruit/vegetable/herb to make my muffins, but I can choose if I want to use oatmeal and bananas or peasemeal and blueberries).  SWG's resource finding machine thingies would make sense in STO, too.

Regarding crafting and the black market:  Perhaps you could make your fortune anticipating what NPC faction will be willing to pay a high price for some type of component in a near future, and then mass-producing it?  I'm a bit afraid it may lead to an unbalanced economy, but if one could make it work, it could be a lot of fun...
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: SpeakThoseWords on 05 August 2008 01:25 PM
A very good topic, great comments.

I'd have to say I'm for this idea.  I've been won over.  I am still concerned about skewing the Trek Universe by designing a bulk of gameplay around something that, by and large, has not been shown in the series... the only civillian craft I recall, other than cargo ships, was dramatically underpowered.  I'm not sure that civillian life should be at all like life in starfleet... the missions starfleet takes shouldn't really be accomplishable by freelancers.

But freelancers should have options open to them... first, ones that focus exclusively on skill branches that will exist anyway
Helmers: Navigating treacherous areas with cargo
Sciencers: Crafting scientific solutions to problems as they come in
Command: Acting as teachers or community leaders, using the same skills, or renamed ones, as captains use to get NPCs to do stuff
Engineering: Repairing and maintaining various civillian devices and ships.
Medical: Being civillian doctors
Tatical: Being bounty hunters, perhaps not with fed-ready ships, but certainly able to cause a ruckus on foot if need be

Obviously, advancement would be different without the rank... there might not be much advancement beyond skillpoints and money for civvies.

As for crafting I question 'crafting' things that are generally mass produced, like ships and shuttles.  I do believe it would be cool for players to be able to come together and design a new ship class or unique starbase... that sounds awesome.  Even assembling these big ships with custom add ons only availble to skilled crafters sounds cool.  As players design these classes, perhaps picking from a plethora of possible hulls, saucers, nacelles and other cosmetic designs, in addition to 'system' configurations and etc... perhaps the 'crafting guild' can put some of these things to a vote, or have the leaders decide exlusively, depending on how the guild is set up. 

But on a small scale I don't think it makes much sense for individuals to craft small items such as phasers and such in a world where replicators exist.  Crafting has to take on a different form than simply creating objects for consumption... that doesn't work in the Star Trek fiction.  I do think there should be functions to design things, and perhaps players can gain prestige or credits from these things, but the fiction doesn't really support Tailors and Art guys plugging away at something hard.  They could design it, and then replicate it... job done.  Likewise, I don't think the dancer/cook/musician paradigm has much of a place here either.  Those are things, with the design of small items, that I think should be available to all players, and not necessarily be 'careers' per se, though I see no reason why a civillian couldn't spend all their time doing such things if there were advancement in meeting a lot of people.

The one I haven't figured out yet is the miner.  I think that's one additional type of gameplay from SWG that might need to be invested in.  I don't get it, of course, but some people love it.
Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: itekazzawrrlic on 03 November 2009 01:20 AM
I agree 100% That was some of the best fun of SWG and if you think about it, it makes sense.

If you played SWG before, then you know about the crafting system they have in place. IMO it was one of the best I seen to date. An example being with mining. You had different mining stations you could setup, and you told the station what type of ore you needed, and loaded the credits and power to start it running. The station would continue to run until: (A) The resources got used up, (B) You bin got filled up, (C) You ran out of what kept the station running to begin with.

I am still hoping we will see Civilians in STO, mainly used for merchants, crafters and gathers. They are the unseen force in the Federation, and we got to see part of their world on DS9. Some people think this is a waste of time, and starfleet officers should be able to do all this craft as well. BUT crafters in Star Fleet were only in the Engineers and Medical ranks, and mainly what they did was stuff for the ships and crews.

What I feel is need to make this game deeper, are Civilian workers to do the odds and ends.

Here's an example of jobs I see for the working class:

1. Miner - Dig up and refine all ores and crystals
2. Tailor - Hand made clothes
3. Merchant - Seller of all types of goods
4. Cargo Transporter - Need to move heavy or light cargo to all planets
5. Art Crafter - From glass to stone and even paintings, we need some to help dress up you quarters.
6. Dancer - Helps to boost a crews moral.
7. Musician - Moral booster and helps to past the time.
8. Cook - Gives a boost to a crews abilities

Those are just a small example of a few worker type jobs that could get added to STO. Mind you this doesn't touch on the other type of jobs within Star Fleet, or any of the other ideas CS has of their own. This is just my thoughts on the matter, and something I think is very do able in the game.

Another question would be, where would we put the Civilians in the game? How about the Starbase for #1. It's a great place to do your craft, and you will always have Star Fleet ships paying these places a visit.

Anyway, feel free to talk about this old idea, and expand on it if you will. But I still believe this is a needed part of STO that needs to be added.  :wink:

Title: Re: Do you really want to see a SWG type working class in STO?
Post by: Jatal Khyron on 03 November 2009 02:13 PM
I agree with having a 'civilian' class in STO. Sometimes they were the most interesting (Garak, Quark, Guinan), and sometimes not (Neelix), but all in all it would be good to have a neutral class that could be anything from a cook to a pirate.